Methinks there's more to the Red Sox clubhouse than meets the eye...

Speaking of unhappy players, why did Javy Lopez have to be criticized on his way out? Seems like an ex-Sox player can't leave without the door hitting him on the way out.

Meow, Ortiz.

It'll be interesting to see if the Blue Jays can overtake the RS -- Boston sounds like there's a lot of infighting going on.

regarding making the playoffs - What place were the Rangers in the year Arod won mvp, 2003?

And regarding postion players - You can't honestly believe that Barry's glove was the reason he won, nor Sosa, nor Frank Thomas, Mo Vaughn, or Giambi.

If Ortiz wants to win the MVP award so bad why doesn't he GET OFF HIS BUTT AND GO PLAY A POSITION. You know who really should be DHing in Manny with all of his unusual knee problems. Papi is quite capable of going out and playing 1B. Maybe he is just lazy. The guy is a hitting machine but come on if one of your arguments is that the award will go to a position player, go out and play a position like the majority of players do in the league. Maybe a new name for him should be BIG BABI.

Usually the manager decides who plays which position...he played 1B in Minny, it's not like he's refusing or something. But you can't tell me the team would have been better off with him at first and Youk in left left, because that was the only option for most of the season. Willy Mo could probably play left, but then either Lowell or Youkilis lose time, and that's not desirable either.

The thing about only homer guys deserving MVP was pretty stupid, but the voting in the past sort of supports it...Giambi, Bonds, Juan Gone, Sosa, Vaughn, etc. RBI/power guys all.

I don't like the throwing-the-team-under-the-bus he sort of does, though that could have just as easily been a reference to the spat of injuries. I mean a backup's a backup...

And I bet Ortiz doesn't know what a win share is anyway. :)

Actually, Jeter playing SS actually hurts his case, I think, as Jeter is WORSE than a replacement SS in the field.

Classic case of an athlete thinking the job he does is the most important part of the game. You see this all the time with announcers like Joe Morgan, and a bunch of managers, and certainly athletes themselves. In football, what percent of defense players think "defense wins championships"? And what percent of offense players think "the best defense is a good offense"?

I recall an essay by Bill James from the Baseball Abstract asking why playing for the Red Sox seemed to turn players into jerks (Jim Rice being the poster boy at that time). James put forth the theory that Fenway tended to inflate certain statistics for some players such that thier numbers made them look better players than they actually were. The natural result was the player having an inflated opinion of himself, the dominant personality trait of most jerks.

Doesn't seem to fit here because Ortiz doesn't show any advantage at home, so maybe there's something in the water.

ortiz really sounds like an idiot.

and im not even a yankee fan.

what about hafner? he has 42 HR in 129 games.

if Ortiz's stats are head-over-heels better than Jeter, then he deserves the MVP.

Ortiz batting .288, HR 48, RBI 127, OBP.402,run103

Jeter batting .345, HR 13, RBI 91, OBP .419,runs 98

Ortiz certainly kicks azz in HR and RBI. jeter with a big edge on Average. who is to say which is mroe important ?

Jeter makes the playoffs certainly makes his stats more impressive.

me ? I vote for Jeter.

how about you guys ??

"Actually, Jeter playing SS actually hurts his case, I think, as Jeter is WORSE than a replacement SS in the field."

Obviously not a regular viewer of Yankees games. He and Cano have been pretty solid over the last month and a half, and even A-Rod's tightened things up in recent weeks. The mere fact that Jeter wears a glove every day increases his chances of winning the MVP over a DH.

Man, I really wanted to like Ortiz, even though he KILLS my team. I felt bad for him when he had his heart scare, because no one should miss games because of something that serious.

This just makes him look like Juan Gonzalez, circa 2000(?), when he was scowling at official scorers for not awarding him RBIs.

Ohmygaw, a baseball player said something stupid!?!?! Stop the presses. I've never heard of such a thing.

Oh, and baseball players are egotistical, too! Holy crap, this is crazy.

What next? Are you going to tell me politicians make promises they can't keep?

Somebody stop the world! I want to get off!

You know, reading the article makes me think that listening to the exchange might leave one with less of a negative impression of Ortiz than the article does. In the first place, if his statement was in response to a question "The Red Sox probably won't make the playoffs. Do you think that should disqualify you from being MVP?" then the whole statement reads more like a mildly rambling attempt to be responsive than a sour grapes player campaigning for a lost personal cause. It is also unclear if statement that he doesn't worry about it were a patently transparent denial of the obvious, or actually what he thinks, and the rest just analysis. And his statement that he might vote for Dye or Morneau might seem hypocritical, or it might be that his position is winning matters, but is not the only thing. It all depends on the context and tenor of the remarks, and those are not discernable from the article.

I can't help but notice that Jeter is 2nd in Win Shares...wait, sorry, tied for 1st. Jeter's also leading the league in BA with runners in scoring position. Ortiz isn't even in the top 20.

I haven't heard many people talking about Travis Hafner = 42/117/.308 , that's a pretty good line. Oh, and he's leading the AL in:

1. Runs Created
2. Isolated Power
3. OBA+SLG
4. Secondary Average
5. BA in close & Late situations (Ortiz ain't even in the top 20 for that list!)

He's also one of the best hitters when the bases are loaded. Those are some tell tale stats that say he's actually more clutch than Ortiz.

Cape Codder,
When Javy Lopez was shipped out of Baltimore, Jim Duquette twisted the blade a bit. I thought it was a typical bit of Orioles' classlessness. Maybe the front office complaints about Javy have some merit.

Pete,

People who bash Jeter's fielding ability use fielding metrics. Most sportswriters probably don't, so they'd agree with you...but a lot of sabermetricians have Jeter among the worst defensive shortstops in baseball.

People in baseball circles are talking about Travis Hafner...just look at this board. I would assume that anyone who would take the time to read/post at sites like this knows a good deal more than your average joe. But Hafner's team was a constant dissappointment and stopped being a factor in May or June. At least Boston was in contention for a long time, and still is mathematically.

Unfortunately for Travis, most writers probably won't even bother looking at him for anything above a second or third place vote, simply because his team played so poorly.

Sure Jeter isn't Ozzie in the field, but what makes his offense so important is that he plays SS, which is one of the most valuable positions on the diamond. Compare his numbers to other shortstops and you'll what I mean. Take a look at what SG wrote over at Replacement Level: http://yankeefan.blogspot.com/2006/09/is-derek-jeter-al-mvp.html

Hafner is an interesting case. There are some Indians fans who do not see him as clutch, that he only hits when the game isn't on the line. I don't know if that's true, but again, like Ortiz, he has to be head and shoulder better than someone who hits and fields to win the award, in my opinion. I really think it comes down to Mauer and Jeter.

Thank you Capybara -- Pinto's sounding like a Herald-beat-writer. Why all the Papi-hating?

The guy just gets it done. And ego's a necessary tool in superstar-caliber athleticism.

If Ortiz played a position, his stats would come down to his competition's level. But if his competition switched to DH, would their numbers go up to his? I'd wager not. Ortiz IS a position player: DH is a position. And Ortiz has been the best DH ever.

Actually, a number of defensive systems have Jeter's performance much closer to average over the last three seasons. BP's FRAA certainly does, and I believe that UZR does also. Jeter was already hugely valuable even as a defensive liability; add in average defense, and the guy's bat becomes even more important.

While Ortiz comes off sounding like sour grapes, I think it's pretty fair to cut him some slack. He's obviously frustrated with the season. Sure, it was lacking in some class, but who doesn't stick their foot in it now and again, especially when their job isn't giving the satisfaction it once did? I was surprised to read it, but am inclined to read it more as Capybara and Cape Codder suggested: as a rambling response by a guy who's more than a little flayed by a rough season, and likely a selectively quoted response at that.

But Cape Codder...I don't think I agree with you on the "Best DH Ever". I think of Frank Thomas and Edgar Martinez first. Ortiz has had a few outstanding years, but those guys did it for, oh, just a touch longer. Thomas in particular was a monster, and not having too bad a year this year, either. I also don't buy your "switch to DH" and see who's better. The whole point is that defense is a skill that adds value. By taking a competent shortstop out of his position, you're automatically extracting that value. It doesn't float.

DH is not a position. It's a lack of a position. The amount of adjustment any non-DH would have to go through in order to DH is absolutely zero. There are no special skills involved with being a DH that don't also apply to any other batter. No, that doesn't disqualify Ortiz from being MVP by any means, but any consideration of his value has to take into account the fact that, under normal circumstances, he contributes nothing at all to defense.

Papi is tired, frustrated and there's nothing good to talk about in Boston these days.

Let him vent and move on.

He will finish fourth. Or even lower.

Papi is the best DH ever??? Don't get me wrong, he's had a great three seasons, but last I checked Edgar Martinez still held the "Best DH Ever" title, and Harold Baines may even have an argument as a greater all time DH than Ortiz just based on longevity. Call me back in 5-10 years before crowning Papi greatest DH ever.

"I recall an essay by Bill James from the Baseball Abstract asking why playing for the Red Sox seemed to turn players into jerks (Jim Rice being the poster boy at that time)."

That sounds so dumb, I have a hard time believing Bill James wrote it. What's a sabermatrician doing trying to analyze player personalities? How about this: Most athletes have egos, no matter how hard they try to hide them, because it's necessary for their jobs.

Rice by most accounts I've read was uncooperative with media only when they asked him about other players on the team. He had no problem talking about his own accomplishments/failures but got pissed when they kept asking him to bash other players (or something like that; memory is fuzzy).

Considering Ortiz has absolutely ZERO history of throwing teammates under the bus, campaigning on his own behalf or exhibiting any of those crybaby-type traits we've seen from pro athletes before, perhaps it behooves folks like Dave here to cut him some slack. Also curious how this one comment is leading the Sox back to "25 players, 25 cabs." If I had a nickel for every time over the past 10 years I heard the Sox might be returning to that policy, I would not have to be typing this at work.

Bill James observation was that the Red Sox had success where there were a number of new players on the team. His theory was that as time went on, cliches formed on the team around people who the park helped and people it didn't.

I'd rank Frank Thomas over Edgar Martinez on the all-time DH list.

I'm in the "it's been a frustrating season" camp. I think he's just ready for the season to be done, much like the rest of the team is probably feeling.

superstar athletes have big egos? whoa. here and i thought that was only barry lamar Himself

ortiz woulda won last year if he had played first. like you can't miss millar/minky/whoever?????

saying derek jeter's defense helps the yankees is like saying adam everett's bat helps the astros

http://boston.redsox.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060912&content_id=1659130&vkey=news_bos&fext=.jsp&c_id=bos

Ortiz's clarification. I thought from the start that he's too intelligent to have meant that only HR/RBI guys deserve the MVP, and I was right...he just meant that they're the ones who usually get it.

Perception becomes reality, and irony is king.

Derek Jeter was a poor defensive shortstop - at one time, the worst in the American League - while his reputation was that he was superb defensively. The argument based on advanced numbers and not the eyeball predictably got short shrift. Fast-forward a few years, and the argument based on the advanced numbers still gets short shrift, but in the other direction. :numbers for the last three years (fielding statistics as shortstop). Jeter's game has caught up with his reputation, to the point where the Gold Glove in 2005 was ... well, not deserved - he wasn't the best fielder at SS in the AL that year - but not a travesty.

This year, Jeter is an average fielding SS swinging a potent bat. That adds enough value that Ortiz (or Hafner, for that matter) would have to be Bondsian to be worth more.

Perception becomes reality, and irony is king.

Derek Jeter was a poor defensive shortstop - at one time, the worst in the American League - while his reputation was that he was superb defensively. The argument based on advanced numbers and not the eyeball predictably got short shrift. Fast-forward a few years, and the argument based on the advanced numbers still gets short shrift, but in the other direction.

Lisa, take a look at BP's numbers for the last three years (fielding statistics as shortstop). Jeter's game has caught up with his reputation, to the point where the Gold Glove in 2005 was ... well, not deserved - he wasn't the best fielder at SS in the AL that year - but not a travesty.

This year, Jeter is an average fielding SS swinging a potent bat. That adds enough value that Ortiz (or Hafner, for that matter) would have to be Bondsian to be worth more.

First off, I am a Yankee fan. Yes, I would like Jeter to win the MVP; however, I could accept Morneau, Dye or Mauer as the winner and not cry "foul" I just do not believe that a DH should win the award. Okay, all the Red Sox fans are screaming at me now, but let me make my case.
As DH, a player is one dimensional, probably plays a total of 20 minutes out of every game, counting his swings and possible hits/walks. After each at bat, he goes back to the dugout, sits or maybe goes into the runway to swing the bat.

In the meantime, the two way players are spending more time in the field/at bat, expending a lot more energy over the course of a game, in all weather conditions, especially sweltering heat which can just drain a person standing out in the field, and doing this day after day.

You cannot truly believe that the two way players remain as strong physically and mentally over the course of the season as a DH who expends a small percentage of his energy in comparison.
Therefore, the DH has the advantage of being physically stronger during the season, worrying only about his next at bat, not put in a position at a position where he has to make any fielding plays.

Ortiz is having a great offensive season but does not deserve the MVP. ML Baseball should make it easy to settle these arguments; MVP award, Best Hitter Award, Cy Young and Best Reliever. That way, a DH could recieve the Best Hitter Award without the stigma of only playing offense. MVP as the most valuable two way player, Cy Young limited to starting pitchers and of course, the last limited to just relief pitchers. I know that some may consider this simplistic, but, what is there to lose.